3G Pitch discussions

Following the meeting held on Thursday 19th July regarding the overall proposed plans of the feasibility study, this meeting has been called upon for all MTFC MEMBERS ONLY.

On Friday 10th August, 7pm at the Candac Suite this meetng will discuss in more detail of what the 3G pitch facility is and why it is important for the club to move forward and progress with one.

There will be members of the FAW Trust and a pitch contractor from Verde Recre.

For more information on the evening please call Steve Lloyd on 07912748210 or email him at sjclloyd@hotmail.co.uk

BDM@MTFC wrote:Following the meeting held on Thursday 19th July regarding the overall proposed plans of the feasibility study, this meeting has been called upon for all MTFC MEMBERS ONLY.

On Friday 10th August, 7pm at the Candac Suite this meetng will discuss in more detail of what the 3G pitch facility is and why it is important for the club to move forward and progress with one.

There will be members of the FAW Trust and a pitch contractor from Verde Recre.

For more information on the evening please call Steve Lloyd on 07912748210 or email him at sjclloyd@hotmail.co.uk

With due respect, given that Verde Recre is in the business of supplying artificial playing surfaces they are hardly a disinterested or neutral party and despite the use of sunny terminology such as 'move forward' or 'progress' the FA rules are currently unambiguous on this. Clubs will not be allowed to progress with 3g pitches. Indeed, as things stand, clubs are not even allowed to compete in play-offs for progression with 3g pitches. Now it may well be that 3g is essential to the financial well-being of the club. If that is your point then fair enough. However lets not start pretending that this has anything to do with progressing when current FA documents make it clear that no such progression is open to clubs with 3g beyond the Southern League (our current league).

So anyhow there may be a case to be made for the 3g pitch, and certainly if the club is planning to leave the English football structure there is the possibility of progression within the Welsh pyramid.

Why will there be no representatives from either one of the tiny number of clubs who have enjoyed "progression" under the 3g experience?

This is the document that relates to clubs competing in the English pyramid:

http://www.thefa.com/News/my-football/facilities/2012/may/2012/jul/~/media/050326712F0144D9B14AFC853435174A.ashx

Until this position changes and, so it seems, there is every indication that it MAY change in the future as indicated by the tone of the FA document linked then terms such as progress may be inappropriate. A more honest approach, would be to at least argue why the club should abandon any notion of progression beyond the Southern League for the immediate, and possibly though not definitely, long term future and embrace the benefits of 3g.

Don't think for a moment that I am taking a position on 3g per-se here as an open mind is no doubt essential and all facts worthy of consideration. However, will there also be a meeting for members and a presentation that covers the dangers to and limitations of clubs who use 3g? Just askin'

There is a campaign incidentally for the inclusion of 3g and there is some, but not much, info here:

http://www.maidstoneunited.co.uk/tag/3g4us/

Hope that didn't all come across too controversial. It really wasn't my intent.

Personally, I really hope this doesn't go ahead. It would definitely take away something from my experience of going to Penydarren. From a personal, viewing perspective, when I watched a fair few Welsh Prem games on S4C I would never watch one at TNS's ground because it just looked and felt wrong (especially in any sort of sun where there would be this hideous glare). Same goes for when I've flicked over to Euro games involving Russian clubs that use it.

The bounce is different, it definitely diminishes harder/sliding tackles, it just isn't for me.

And also, all the worries and concerns MA pointed out above I think are absolutely crucial to address.

Totally agree A465, the problem with any non grass surface is that it's artifical, no matter how far technology has progressed since the days of QPR and Preston. I've seen some of the action from TNS and it looks and acts totally different from our current surface, and would definitely detract from the quality of the football being played. Every game would seem like a training session on astroturf as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure the players wouldn't be too keen on playing on a different surface every week either, as it may affect the style of football we play, depending on whether we're home or away - I also think it's important to get their views, as well as those of the supporters, as they are the ones who'll be playing on it.

I would like to add my concerns to those expressed above. The impression is being given that this move to an artificial pitch is a done deal and that anyone opposing it is unsympathetic to the club's wish to "move forward", whatever that means.

I am not a member of the trust, though I have great admiration for all they have achieved thus far, but I have been a supporter of the club since the 1950s from near and far and so feel I am entitled to an opinion on this matter. As indeed are the other supporters who just pay on the gate, so I hope these non-trust people are also going to be consulted after the season starts rather than face a fait accompli.

I appreciate the need to improve revenue etc, but I want to support a football club, not a seven days a week community facility with a football club attached, so I think we have to be very careful in getting the balance right in the future. I agree entirely with the two previous posters regarding the TNS pitch. I watch WPL games on television, and my only reaction every time I see a game from TNS is that it isn't proper football. Despite my lifetime of support I would not want to watch games on an artificial pitch at Penydarren Park and I suspect a lot of other supporters feel the same.

fistral10 wrote:I'm sure the players wouldn't be too keen on playing on a different surface every week either, as it may affect the style of football we play, depending on whether we're home or away - I also think it's important to get their views, as well as those of the supporters, as they are the ones who'll be playing on it.

I know supporters of other clubs in the Welsh Prem definitely feel it gives TNS far too much of an unfair advantage. Also, though I could be mistaken, TNS have a rather disproportionate set of stats away from home in comparison to their home standard (which is ridiculous, I think they've only lost once or twice in 3 years or something). I know the pitch isn't the sole reason for this, but still. Now, I feel that the league we find ourselves in this coming season will be a bit more homogenous than the Welsh Prem (which has, in my opinion, a bit of a gulf between top and bottom). You never know how it could affect our players using Penydarren to train on and then play home games on, then be faced with some mud bath of varying quality elsewhere every other week. Will it make away games that bit harder to adapt to? Will we be relying solely on home form to carry us?

I know these aren't "financial" arguments, which are of course of great importance, but I believe they are just as important to address.

Perhaps as a matter of interest a voting form can be given out at our next match FOR or AGAINST but the ultimate decision will have to be left to the trust members.If not what is the point of paying a tenner and joining

I wonder if this debate is going to be turned into a version of the one Cardiff City supporters have had about whether their team should play in red?

With Cardiff, in a nutshell it seemed to be a choice of continuing to play in blue and never getting any higher than they are now, or play in red and attract investment to progress to higher levels.

It's beginning to seem as if with Merthyr it might be play on a 3G pitch and help generate extra income to progress to higher levels - or stay as we are and just scrape along.

However, I hasten to add I don't think it CAN be put as simply as that. It seems an artificial pitch is only PART of the development of the club as a community facility. Personally I think development of the club in that way is necessary - whether an artificial pitch is integral to that I can't say. But we'd all like to see the club progress to where it was just eight years ago - one level below the Blue Square Premier - but all kinds of developments to the ground, not to mention the building up of a playing squad good enough would be required, and all these cost money. We averaged league attendances of 446 last season - but that was to support a promotion-winning team. Can we expect as many if the team are not looking like achieving promotion? As it was, attendances dipped below 350 for four of the league games (more in the cups). Bearing in mind we don't want to be drawn into the kind of overspending that eventually resulted in the demise of Merthyr Tydfil FC (and does for so many other clubs these days) how far can we go on existing levels of income from match receipts, sponsorship, etc?

I'll admit I'm in two minds about playing on an artificial pitch. The only time I've witnessed a game on one (in person and NOT on TV) was at Preston way back in 1987. I didn't like it at all - although that may have been coloured by us (Lincoln) losing 3-0 on it! But I'm open to being convinced that the technology has moved on in 25 years.

At the moment artificial pitches are allowed in the FA Trophy and the qualifying rounds of the FA Cup and, I believe, only up to Southern League Premier level. But looking around the internet it does seem as if they could slowly become more acceptable in the future. I admit that can't be certain, nor of course, if they do, whether that future will coincide with where we might then be placed with regard to progess up the pyramid.

As for supporters being consulted, and being a member of the Trust - well it doesn't cost too much to belong, and when anything controversial like this comes up, remember as a Trust member you can influence how the club is run - like in any other democracy!

I suspect that the community aspect of the project is central to the funding. But in securing funding, community aspect or otherwise, I would argue that funds would be better spent in improving the ground grading for the club. As it stands 3g does the opposite. It means spending on hundreds of thousands of pounds on closing the door on promotion.

There are precedents to look at however. There is one club at present that is in the process of building a stadium as a community resource, they too are applying for grants and are not going down the 3g route, presumably because they have ambitions to progress. The club is FC Utd who are in the process of building facilities at Moston.

Now unlike Cardiff situation this is not a case of additional funding in order to progress. It is funding that may improve facilities but will mean with 100% certainty that the club will not progress beyond Southern League regardless of what happens on the pitch. It is a club that, if we secure promotion from the Southern League South and West, will never be challenging for promotion again without spending even more stacks of money to put the pitch right.

At present, so it seems, 3g is neither the way forward nor a ticket to progress. Just because funding is available for something does not always mean that you have to take and spend that funding. I am sure Covanta would happily provide millions to fund an incinerator in the middle of the pitch too and that would have the same effect on ground grading for conference.

If the aim is of course to secure the long term position of Merthyr Town in the Southern League as the height of ambition then that is a different debate altogether.

Now at no point here to I assume that, ground grading aside, promotion to the conference is going to happen in a few years. But it does not hurt to be ambitious. Ambition does certainly not mean slamming the door on the possibility by moving further away from the current ground grading requirements.

The question is this. If this is such a wonderful option then why is it that clubs are not taking available funding and going down this road at present? It could be this proposal is right and thousands of clubs, at all levels, from the top to bottom of the pyramid are wrong.

Again, I remain open minded on the playing surface itself but as current FA rules are would suggest the club stay away from this. If the FA at some point changes their position, and it is not outside the realms of possibility, then I will defer to those with more experience of this kind of surface and the cost/benefits etc as it is not something I would be qualified to judge. At present though it would nail any ambition the club could have of progressing. This is why I suspect that when FCUM complete their community facility in the next year or two then they will not be playing on astroturf.

Oh, hell. Just realised that I pretty much said the same thing as I did in my last post except with different words. Repeating myself, not a good sign! I am sure whatever the decision that is reached will be with the best of intentions anyway.

Mountain Ash wrote: I would argue that funds would be better spent in improving the ground grading for the club. As it stands 3g does the opposite.

Ambition does certainly not mean slamming the door on the possibility by moving further away from the current ground grading requirements.

It's been stated that it would cost between £400,000 and £500,000 to instal a 3G pitch. I wasn't at the meeting the other week so I don't know the details of how the various developments mentioned are to be funded, but surely it's not a case of that amount of money being available for spending on other projects. However that amount is to be raised wouldn't it only be for a 3G pitch and nothing else?

No doubt more details and information will emerge at the next meeting.

'Current ground grading requirements' - a point I was trying to make is it's the ground grading requirements in a couple of years or so that we have to try and anticipate. I haven't gone into the matter, but I would think 3G pitches are allowed in more competitions now than previously, and it may be that they'll be allowed in more still in the years to come. Of course we don't KNOW that they will - or just when - but I just think it's something to be born in mind before dismissing the idea completely.

Merthyr Imp wrote:
a point I was trying to make is it's the ground grading requirements in a couple of years or so that we have to try and anticipate.

Good point, and noted. My point incidentally not one of outright dismissal. Indeed it comes with the caveat regarding changes of policy and so on. Since this work is supposedly over a number of years up to 2015 it does give time to assess which way the wind is blowing on this if the astroturf work is not frontloaded.

My point really comes down to not being hasty as I don't really have a view on the pitches as such given that I have not seen competitive football played on them since the days of the old bouncy QPR astroturf.

Mountain Ash wrote:I am sure whatever the decision that is reached will be with the best of intentions anyway.

Just to add - that's a point well worth making. However the club is run now everything is done with the best of intentions - which is not what a lot of people would have said a few years ago.

I have mixed feelings at the moment but from what i understand the life of these pitches is ten years.So in ten years time if the club have to find another 500grand then that could be a problem;I am to old in the tooth for me to worry about it but could be an almighty worry for others if no grants are available

I have to agree with all that has been said by the above supporters. I am not a board memeber, but have supported the club since the 1950's, when I lived at Park Place at the Theatre end of the ground, and I was taken to watch the Town by my father who was the foreman at the Rink Garage, now occupied by houses just up the road from the Theatre. I usually record S4C's Sgorio, (not the live version as my Welsh is not good enough to undertstand most of what they are saying, but the later recorded high lights, when I can put up the English Subtitles). When ever TNS are on playing at their plastic patch, I always put the fast forward on to hurry through their game, as the football on that surface is so unatural and boring to watch!

I think it would be a big mistake to go ahead with the installation of a 3G pitch, prior to the facility being accepted at the Conference level in football, or being allowed in the FA Cup 1st round propper. Cast your minds back a number of years to the Walsall FA Cup game; where would we play any similar fixture? We would have to give away home advantage! It would be foolish to go ahead with installing a 3G pitch on the premise that in the future, 3G grounds may be accepted at a higher level in football; as I understand it there is considerable opposition to allowing these surfaces by the majority of clubs and their supporters, so prior to them being accepted the project should be shelved until a much later date!

Do the financial arguments really stack up, as we are living in one of the poorest and deprived areas of the UK, where the majority of people do not have a lot of disposable income, and the facilities would have to compete with those, often under used which are already available. After all the Town already has an Astro turf ground at Tywyrodyn, and other types of sporting facilities at Rhydycar, etc.

Why not give the supporters a ballot paper at one of our home games, say at the end of September when both sides have had a chance to put forwards their argument, and with the pro's and con's laid out before them, then allow the supporters to vote on the subject?

So best thing is that I turn up for the meeting, if I'm not a member then I join on the night, then I express my opinion and when it comes to a point in the future where all members are able vote on the project I cast my vote. Sounds simples to this despot.

I wouldn't want to watch games played on any artificial surface unless someone could assure me that playing on it it would be indistinguishable from the real thing - in which case, what would be the point of change? I have no idea of the relevant costs, but if investment of several hundred thousands of pounds were involved, would it be worth considering under-pitch heating as we regularly lose games to frost and snow?

hirwaunman wrote:I wouldn't want to watch games played on any artificial surface unless someone could assure me that playing on it it would be indistinguishable from the real thing - in which case, what would be the point of change? I have no idea of the relevant costs, but if investment of several hundred thousands of pounds were involved, would it be worth considering under-pitch heating as we regularly lose games to frost and snow?

I think the idea of installing an artificial pitch is not just to avoid postponements due to frozen or waterlogged pitches but to enable greater use to be made of it without wear and tear - i.e. hiring it out (to quote the Merthyr Express report): 'for the use of Merthyr Tydfil College, football coaching events during school holidays, charity fundraising matches, and, on occasion, other senior teams in the borough, who are without floodlights.' Yes - the existing pitch can be used for such things already - but due to wear and tear nowhere near as much as an artificial pitch could be.

The point is also being made that greater use of the pitch in this way would also mean greater use of other facilities at the ground, either existing or planned.

As I said in another posting, events other than football could maybe also take place on the pitch - such as pop concerts - without fear of damage to the surface.

I seem to be almost the only one on here defending the proposal, but I'm in two minds about it myself! From my limited experience of football on artificial pitches I'm not particularly keen on the idea, but on the other hand if it's such a key part of the plans for the club to progress I don't like to see the chance of that progress missed without at least trying to point out what the arguments are in favour of it.

My first take on this is that it would be a good thing and would enable the club to develop in the future! I thought that we would be able to adapt to the surface and it may even benefit us. However, when I found out the FA rulings on the surface I think its worth it! If we're going to spend money, lets do it with ambition and aim as high as we can!

I think if supporters want to have their say, they should become members of Merthyr Town Football Club (there is no Trust per se anymore. You now join the CLUB) and then they can vote on this important issue.
Most postings here have opposed the idea but it is always the case that when something controversial is aired, those against are more likely to proclaim their views than those in favour.
The scheme seems to be an integral part of the overall Penydarren Park project but I don't know if there are any facts as to which clubs etc would want to hire the ground to enable Merthyr Town to benefit to the extent forecast.
Also, of course, the whole matter is only a plan at the moment, following the feasibility study, and if it gets the OK, funding will then be sought by way of grants etc.
The club "belongs" to the fans, so they will have their say.

Well said Tim..

I must urge supporters to join the club for the right to vote on this and other vital issues that may face us whilst the club is supporter owned, now and in the long term future.

At the end of the day all the clubs officers, board, committee (call it what you like) are elected by the membership (supporters) to run the football club.

As a board member I am open minded over the 3g issue, however I see it as my duty whilst elected to ensure any idea that is feasible, accessible and will benefit the community and football club long term and help protect and preserve senior football in the Borough are investigated and realized, and if a 3gs pitch isn't going to be this idea then we move on to the next project.

You cant hide from the fact a 3gs surface will benefit the wider community, or you cant hide from the fact the additional revenue the pitch could (however much or less it may be) would benefit the club, also you cant hide from the fact a new type facility would help to boost and secure employment at the club, however you also cant hide from the risks involved with such a big project such as cost, uptake, FA rules and regulations etc, so all the above are valid points.

This topic shows there is strong feeling about this subject, Keep up the debate guys, it was so refreshing the other night to see people passionate about their club and I am sure next weeks meeting will be the same....

UP THE TOWN

I have previously stated on here that it is not for me,but having seen the pitch last night with the goal areas cutting up, if as stated we are a community club and it will be used quite a lot like a mini tournament on the weekend for instance prior to the season start,then i think we may have no other alternative than 3g.

'On Friday 10th August, 7pm at the Candac Suite this meeting will discuss in more detail what the 3G pitch facility is and why it is important for the club to move forward and progress with one.'

Probably it was not the intention, but the above posting makes a decision in principle on this look like a done deal. Obviously all means of raising revenue and increasing the club's profile in the community should be examined, but the game on the pitch should be the guiding priority.

I agree that these matters should be fully discussed and that's why it's useful to give them an airing on the forum. Then the Club members (such as myself) can be better informed about what questions should be asked on the night.