3G Pitch discussions

This has been a useful and informative discussion and I'm somewhat more reassured about 3G pitches than I was, though I still have reservations about the quality and the nature of the 3G playing surface.

I'm also mindful of the fact that the club, in its new incarnation, has come along way in a very short time - in fact, the shortest possible time in terms of the non-league pyramid. Maybe it's time to see how we get on back in the Southern League and focus upon encouraging a greater level of interest and support in the town and surrounding areas. I know that we may have to speculate to accumulate support, but there are wothwhile and relatively inexpensive improvements that can be made to the facilities at PP and I'd rather see a larger core of regular support before we embark on anything too ambitious. This may be an instance where it's better to let other clubs set the pace and see how things work out with 3G.

The support for the club playing at Taffs Well was remarkable, and more than I was expecting before the start of that season - but winning nearly every game helped!

Last season's crowd figures were, I would say, also very satisfactory. But there again, helped by being in a promotion battle, including two 700+ attendances which I doubt very much would have happened otherwise.

My concern is that if we don't have a promotion-challenging side for a year or two people will start to drift away. Let's be honest, despite what I've written above, there have been one or two occasions over the last two seaons when you can say the attendance was disappointingly low.

The regulars will always be there, but the more occasional supporters need to be attracted by a winning team.

The way I see what all this is about - and this is just my view - is that the club can only do so much on existing levels of income from gate money, sponsorship and commercial activities - and remember, with a couple of exceptions, the club is run by a fairly small number of volunteers. That is the scale of the club at the moment. As I see it we can reach a certain level on this basis - maybe Southern League Premier level - but realistically no further.

What tends me toward support for all these development plans - and to maybe reluctant support for a 3G pitch if it's really integral to them - is that it could be a way for the club as it's now constituted (i.e run by a supporters trust for the community) to be put on a basis where progress to above Southern League level is financially possible. Otherwise it's difficult to see how that progress is going to come about. Consolidation is all very well, but I'm a bit sceptical about it being a policy - if the 'occasional' supporter can't see that progress is being made or attempted by a series of promotion challenges (successful or otherwise) they won't bother turning up. That's the best way to build up the numbers of regular supporters.

Of course progress on the field could easily be achieved by throwing silly money at players' wages - but that's rightly not going to happen under the present regime. Finance for that has to come from greater income - which brings us back to these development plans again.

John Strand wrote:Competition matches shall NOT be played on any synthetic or artificial grass surfaces without the prior written approval of the Board.

So then John, is this new? Is this a new addition to the rules? I only ask because I wonder why Maidstone have taken this to mean an unambiguous:

Competition matches shall NOT be played on any synthetic or artificial grass

without the

written approval of the Board.

bit?

They seem to take the approval of the board bit as a NO.

That clause would have to be in the rules. There are all sorts of standards of artificial pitches and the FA and the leagues would presumably have to inspect and approve each of them before play.

Lets face it, if a team rolled out QPR's old pitch even at Step 4 level and had an automatic right to compete in League and FA Cup football on it then it would be a health hazard, as well as rubbish quality. I imagine that the FA will have to grade each pitch installed based on their existing knowledge - which would mean that they could say "this type of pitch will probably be good enough for x cup competitions and up to step y" but could only be precise once the thing is up and running .

Anyway, it was the first league game of the season down here yesterday and our game was spoilt by a shit pitch that didn't allow the wingers to run with the ball properly as it hadn't been mown close enough and most of the clippings over the summer seemed to be rotted into the turf. All summer to prepare and that's the best you get? I used to hate artificial pitches first time around, but seeing a few games recently has turned me around at levels where ground maintenance is costly. We have our first FA Cup game on Saturday on another ground that has a notoriously rubbish playing surface..............

The Imp makes pertinent points with regards to the club's future. I feel that many fans think that Merthyr Town FC's main goal is to progress as quickly as possible in the Non-League and climb as far as possible.
The club's constitution states that their main aim is to become a "community club" in every aspect. Another aim, later mentioned, is that Merthyr want to make progress but realistically and without falling into financial problems! We know what that can lead to. Look at Truro FC, for example, at present! Are they going to survive?
No-one can guarantee promotion year after year but the aims of a community club are achievable. Further success will hinge on money and I assume that the club will need more income this coming campaign than they had last season, just to keep things ticking over.
If the long-term plans visualised produce lots of cash, then that will help to push the club forward.
One assumes that stadium improvements will help the club receive a grade suitable for a place higher up the ladder should the position become tenable.
It will be interesting to see the early attendances next season. As Imp points out, in contrast with two gates of more than 700, there were some disappointing figures in 2010-2011.And, as stated, there are limits to the income stream as far as the present set-up is concerned.

Does anyone know the typical life span of these pitches five /ten years? Will it mean starting to save now for the 500k for replacement as probably we will not have another grant.Or will we just be able to revert to turf at a much lesser expense .In effect what is plan B when faced with this scenario in the future

scamp wrote:Does anyone know the typical life span of these pitches five /ten years? Will it mean starting to save now for the 500k for replacement as probably we will not have another grant.Or will we just be able to revert to turf at a much lesser expense .

Do we know if, taking £500,000 as the initial cost of installing an artificial pitch, it would cost the same to renew it when it's life-expired? Or could renewal be done for less?

To my mind this is something that could be established at the meeting on Friday - especially as a representative of a company supplying them will be there.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to get to the meeting (my wife might not let me), but if so I'd have another couple of questions about artificial pitches.

The majority of games that we have postponed at Penydarren Park are due to either frozen or waterlogged pitches. My questions would be:

1. What effect does freezing temperatures have on these pitches?

2. What happens when there is heavy rain? Does it just drain off (perhaps on a camber)? Or can it just be swept off?

Snow as well as frost is another matter, but my feeling is that the majority of matches called off due to a frozen pitch are due to frost alone.

Mountain Ash wrote:

John Strand wrote:Competition matches shall NOT be played on any synthetic or artificial grass surfaces without the prior written approval of the Board.

So then John, is this new? Is this a new addition to the rules? I only ask because I wonder why Maidstone have taken this to mean an unambiguous:

Competition matches shall NOT be played on any synthetic or artificial grass

without the

written approval of the Board.

bit?

They seem to take the approval of the board bit as a NO.

The regulation quoted by John must be from this:-

'THE FOOTBALL CONFERENCE LIMITED FA STANDARDISED MEMBERSHIP RULES 2012/2013 SEASON'

http://www.footballconference.co.uk/rules.php

To save people wading through all the small print I can say that it's paragraph 24 - Playing Surfaces. The relevant wording is as John has quoted:-

'Competition matches shall NOT be played on any synthetic or artificial grass surfaces without the prior written approval of the Board.'

That seems clear enough. Maybe it IS new (we can only speculate).

Some info on maintenance and lifespan etc in this pdf:

http://sportsurf.lboro.ac.uk/workshops/STARSS/S2/MA.pdf

It is worth taking heed of the summary of the above pdf
i.e A regime of regular routine maintenance is ESSENTIAL for ALL synthetic surfacess

Without regular maintenance surfaces will FAIL to perform with DRASTIC CONSEQUENCES FOR ALL CONCERNED

In view of the extensive interest shown on this subject on the forum and elsewhere, it has been decided to invite non members to the meeting on Friday. Hopefully non members attending will feel inclined to join the Society and take on the responsibility of shared ownership of the club with other members.

Good news although I still think that only members can vote on the proposal.

Doubtful that I'll be able to make it up on Friday. But when will a vote on this likely take place?

Have to agree with old sod. By doing this it is defeating the object of being a member.Supporters have had plenty of time to become members and it is unfortunate it will take something as important as this to entice them to become members.What plans are there to separate members and non members when it comes to voting.

I think that supporters have not taken up the opportunity of becoming members for several reasons! 1. A lot of supporters are unaware of the opportunity, the cost. and how to go about it. Maybe an anouncement could be made over the tanoy at half time during home matches, and or a leaflet could be distributed at home games explaining the benefits of being involved in the decision making, etc. 2. Those who are aware but not taken up the opportunity would want to know what are the ramifications financially on their person, should the club get into financial difficulty? I mentioned it yesterday evening to a friend, who is a some times supporter, ie; he watches about three or four games a season; it used to be a lot more some years ago when we were in the Conference. His exact words were; it's all very well becoming a trust memeber but if the club went bust you, and all the other members would be liable for the clubs debt's!?

Can these matters be cleared up?

I agree that only members should be able to vote. But we must not have a situation of them and us. All supporters are important. We should encourage them to become members and then the situation would not arise.

Martyr Weaver wrote:I think that supporters have not taken up the opportunity of becoming members for several reasons! 1. A lot of supporters are unaware of the opportunity, the cost. and how to go about it. Maybe an anouncement could be made over the tanoy at half time during home matches, and or a leaflet could be distributed at home games explaining the benefits of being involved in the decision making, etc.

Information did appear in a few of the match programmes last season - 26 Nov 2011 v Longwell Green, 2 Jan 2012 (a Bank Holiday game) v Bristol Manor Farm and 7 Jan 2012 v Bishop Sutton. It was also in the programme for the pre-season game against Bath a year ago.

To clear up the question of the status of members. We are a limited company, so there is no question of a member being liable for any debts the club may have, not that we have any.

On the question of membership of the Society, the Society has been in existence for seven years and there have been dozens of ways in which we have tried to attract members. New members are always welcome at a current annual cost of £10.

As to voting, we will explain on Friday evening, the process of how we will finally decide on this issue. We will proceed towards a decision within the rules of the Society which will be explained on Friday. Any vote that takes place under those rules will be for members only.

In comparison to the vast majority of the people on this forum, I am a new face at Penydarren Park and started going to games since October of last year. Safe to say I'm pretty much hooked to the Club's genuine feel and reality after spending a fortune going to Old Trafford for years. Anyway....

in regards to the 3G pitch issue, I think a lot of people are getting confused about the artificial surface at QPR back in the 80's and that of the modern day 3G pitches (They are nothing alike). Obviously I can't speak for all players but I've played on 3g pitches a number of times and from personal experience I found it much more accurate to pass with confidence, knowing that I'm not going to be surprised with a random bump on the pitch. I would much rather play on the type of Grass pitches we see at Premier League level but on a realistic note that's going to happen at Merthyr.

A few people have also mentioned that it would take more tackles out of the game? nonsense if you watched a few games I got ripped apart in. I can't see why there would be less tackling on a 3G pitch if I'm honest?

Also I've noticed a few people comment on TNS games being dull and boring. Why can't that come down to just a boring game, have you watched any of the other games on Sgorio? on grass? they can be just as bad. Not a valid point in my eyes.

On the other side of the coin, the FA regulation is a concern. I wouldn't like to see us stuck in a division if we can progress. I'm not sure what the process is with ground grading regs but if we ever saw ourselves in a potential position of the Football League, would Penydarren Park be up to scratch to play in it anyway (3G or Grass)?

Maybe it's just my age here but It's natural for people to be scared of change. I still have my concerns on a few things because it is a big investment but I am willing to listen and take on board everything that is said on Friday night (from both sides of the debate) before I make my personal decision. A lot of you have already seemed to have made their decision which I think is very unfair to the people/experts visiting our Club to chat to us about it.

What plans are there to separate members and non members when it comes to voting.[/quote]


Members pay £10 and in exchange receive a coloured laminated membership card which they hold up for voting. (that is what has happened in the past)

Would it not be possible if the presentation, and discussion were to take place at Fridays meeting open to non members, and then the vote to take place at a closed meeting for members only, to be held at a later date? I agree that it is the members only who should decide!

I am sure that questions can be asked at the meeting to give further information to the supporters.
Mattmartyr says that some already seem to have made their minds up.
I think the point is that when someone is against a proposal, they are more likely to make their feelings known rather than those who are in favour or who have no real opinion either way. So the forum seems to have been weighed down by opponents to the scheme but the meeting can further explain the situation.

Yeah fair point Tim!

I just hope we respect the people/experts who are coming down to the Club to help us. I'll hang my head if I hear a statement like "It's not the best shade of green" or summin stupid like that lol!

I'm sure we wont!

I will not be able to make it Friday but I would most definitely like to vote on the matter (I am a society member). Will the vote take place on Friday after the presentation or will it take place at a later date after some period of digestion (or perhaps even if a counter-presentation can be made?).

Without wishing to sound close-minded, I want to watch football and Merthyr play on grass. It's as simple as that.

The whole point of this meeting is that it was for members only .The topic of 3g was discussed at the previous meeting the trust held.By inviting non members is not going to help particularly when it comes to voting.A number of non members expressed their views at the previous meeting i have no sympathy for those who have not yet joined they they have had ample time