The Welsh Cup

I see that a young Wrexham side lost to Airbus UK in the Welsh Cup yesterday at the same time as their first team were playing in the FA Cup. They seem to have adopted the same course as we did in dealing with this fixture clash, only even more so as at least we were able to make it 2 games in 2 days rather than 2 games simultaneously!

But it all seems rather unsatisfactory - surely there never used to be these fixture clashes in the 'old days' of the Welsh Cup? I mean back before time when the clubs playing in English leagues were barred from it. Can anyone say what used to happen? (I didn't take much of an interest in the competition myself in those days).

I think that the problem this year has been the conference dates for the FA Cup and Welsh Cup have fallen on the same weekend.

FAW have not had to worry about this problem for the last nine years because the exile clubs were only playing in the English based competitions and setting the conference dates for the Welsh Cup didn't pose any conflict.

Before the imposed ban on the English based clubs competing in the Welsh Cup we would either play in midweek, at the agreement of both clubs, or alternatively play on a Saturday and cancel the scheduled league fixture for that weekend, as we did for the Barry Town game.

With the FA Cup dates taking preference the clash on Welsh Cup weekends this year has led to the inflexibility to cancel a fixture.

I think that if the exiled clubs are to continue competing in both competitions then FAW will need to look at the conference dates for the FA Cup next season to make sure that there is no clash.

Yes, Cup matches take preference over league games. Merthyr Tydfil normally played early rounds of the Welsh Cup on a Saturday (the conference date) and so had to postpone a SL match. Sometimes we played in midweek. I remember us losing at home to Abercynon in a Welsh Cup game on a Tuesday night.
Of course when we came up against a Football League side in the competition, those games were in midweek.I think Merthyr and Swansea in a Welsh Cup tie was an annual fixture. In one game at Penydarren Park, the Swansea chairman hotly disputed the official attendance quoted to him and left in a huff after the game!!!!!!

We are talking about the Welsh FA , and until they realise that the exiled clubs are doing them a favour rather than the other way around and comprpmise with fixture clashes and completion dates these situations will continue to occur.

A far as I am aware the Welsh FA put the onus back on the clubs to re-arrange a date for the fixture (outside of the weekend). In our case I am sure we asked Barry Town to play midweek, they then refused which they were perfectly entitled to do, in the end we were out of the FA Cup at Cinderford so it didnt really matter, not that Wrexham had the same luxury.

The blame for our defeat and the manner of it that day however lies firmly with the team that took the field that day who were extremely poor, and in all honesty should have put up much more of a fight, hence why several of that team are no longer with us as a club.

Personally I would like us to give this competition a little bit more respect if we are in it next season, as I am afraid the too many games argument falls on deaf ears for me (although Saturday/Sunday matches is a very amature resolution) so maybe the Welsh FA will look at the dates, but if we are going to play weakend sides or youth teams in it then count me well out..

I don't know what favour the exiled clubs are doing the FAW. The latter can decide whether or not to allow Merthyr to compete in The Welsh Cup. Their YES this season was a major policy re-think.
Several FAW members turned up for the Barry Town match and they all asked me afterwards what was going on in relation to the team selection. I wonder if we will be invited to play in the Welsh Cup next season!!
I agree with CF48 about the "too many games" point some people raise. As I said previously, one season Lyn Jones' team played a total of 73 games in one season!! There was never any mention of resting players.
So far this term Merthyr Town have played 22 matches in 17 weeks. and there are only 18 teams in the league. So supposing Martyrs lose in the next round of The Les Battersby Cup ( I mean Les Phillips) they will by the end of this season have played 44 games, excluding any friendlies which could be arranged. That's not excessive.
But I do agree that conference dates for the Welsh Cup do not clash with The FA Cup.

I also think that if/when we return to the Southern League the higher status will exempt us from the Preliminary Rounds of the FA Cup and also see a later entry into the Welsh Cup, so another potential way of reducing the number of games to be played!

Both Caerau & Barry were asked to played midweek but they declined, although interestingly Barry did agree to play Newport midweek.

It will be interesting to see the date of the TNS v Newport game. If I recall correctly TNS spoke out against 'exiled' clubs returning, so will they accomodate Newport and play a midweek game?

Scenting a win most probably as they knew County had a game the night before...

Yeah I think Newport will be tested against TNS, imagine County knock them out, the rumbles of discontent will get ever louder...

county will field a totally scratch team as its imperative they remain in the conference prem this season,off field newports in a mess but for some reason information is not being given to the fans and its becoming frustrating,time they followed our model at merthyr and there fans took control
up the martyrs
jonah

Totally different running a full time club in the Conference to ourselves who are currently four steps below Newport.

It would be an interesting hypothetical debate to establish whether the Newport Trust feel confident enough to be able to run the club in the Conference?

I think that it will be really fascinating to watch how the Wrexham Trust develops.

i take on board what your saying wandering and it will be interesting to see how the wrexham trust get on,newport have around 500 trust members currently and many of those people could bring a lot to the table were they ever to gain control of the club,of course it would be working alongside the supporters club who also have many talented people in there ranks,its all about everyone pulling in the same direction which is happening at the martyrs,its a blueprint for success i personally believe.
jonah

jonah wrote:Newport have around 500 trust members currently and many of those people could bring a lot to the table were they ever to gain control of the club.
jonah

I think that the Newport Trust has strength in numbers and would be in a really strong position if they were ever to gain control of the Club. My only concern would be the cost of running the Club on a full-time budget which I think would be hard even with the attendances that County enjoyed earlier in the season.

jonah wrote:Its all about everyone pulling in the same direction which is happening at the martyrs, its a blueprint for success i personally believe.
jonah

I fulling endorse that statement but sometimes the very existence of the Club is in conflict with progress through the pyramid and this is something that could cause internal conflict for Trusts like Newport and Wrexham.

In the current climate of severe austerity, ambitious supporters can start to rock the boat if the level of financial support required to produce a winning formula is missing from the business plan.

It's all about small steps until the foundations are rock solid.

But I agree that our blueprint has been a success.

Exeter City are a good example of what can be acheived if a Trust takes control of a club.

http://www.ecfcst.org.uk/home/trust-history/

They've consolidated in the Football League and are currently being run efficiently by its Trust albeit with a larger membership. I think we've proved that the Merthyr Town Trust has enough energy to deliver for our community too though.

There's always going to be glass ceiling of ambition for Trust-run clubs due to finances but for me the benefits of sustainability outweigh the risks involved in chasing dreams.

Harry Swift wrote:Exeter City are a good example of what can be acheived if a Trust takes control of a club.

http://www.ecfcst.org.uk/home/trust-history/

They've consolidated in the Football League and are currently being run efficiently by its Trust albeit with a larger membership. I think we've proved that the Merthyr Town Trust has enough energy to deliver for our community too though.

There's always going to be glass ceiling of ambition for Trust-run clubs due to finances but for me the benefits of sustainability outweigh the risks involved in chasing dreams.

I have read somewhere that trust owned clubs in general are financially more conservative than other clubs. Understandable when you consider the background to the formation of some of the clubs who have turned their backs on more corporate approach. However there need not be a glass ceiling, as long as clubs are sensible enough there is no reason why in years to come we see supporter owned clubs knocking on the door of the premiership. After all, the existing premiership has a level of debt akin to a small country (indeed if the premiership were a country the IMF would have been called in long ago) and it is ultimately an unsustainable model in the longer term.

Another point being that the bigger clubs are being run on a for profit basis and that will ultimately mean taking more out of a club than is put in. As long as attendances and support in general grows for a club as they progress through the tiers then I would suggest that it could well be that the supporters direct model is the one to watch for the future and it in a few years we could well see Chester, Wrexham and FCUM and so on playing league football.

Since money made by supporter owned clubs gets put into the club and not siphoned off for shareholders or asset strippers then as long as realistic and attainable goals are set then the glass ceiling should be one that could be broken through. Albeit at a sensible pace and one that is mindful of financial realities.

Of course, the stadiums must also meet the grounds criteria. Any club, such as Wrexham, which have formerly played in the League, should be all-right.
Other clubs may have to spend a lot of cash to make the grade. New floodlights may be needed, for example.
At local level, the South Wales Amateur League and The South Wales Senior League grounds have just been inspected. There are plans to merge the two leagues and any club which doesn't meet the requirements, may be booted out and end up in a local league.
Every club needs a forward business plan and a realistic budget. But even then every ambitious debt-free non-league club cannot reach the Football League because of the limited amount of vacancies.
Many clubs chase the dream but at the end of the day, it proves elusive for most of them. They just have to battle on with the hope that some may make it some day.
But things are changing from the days when the usual stugglers were re-elected to the Football League.

Tim Drummond wrote:Of course, the stadiums must also meet the grounds criteria. Any club, such as Wrexham, which have formerly played in the League, should be all-right.
Other clubs may have to spend a lot of cash to make the grade. New floodlights may be needed, for example.
At local level, the South Wales Amateur League and The South Wales Senior League grounds have just been inspected. There are plans to merge the two leagues and any club which doesn't meet the requirements, may be booted out and end up in a local league.
Every club needs a forward business plan and a realistic budget. But even then every ambitious debt-free non-league club cannot reach the Football League because of the limited amount of vacancies.
Many clubs chase the dream but at the end of the day, it proves elusive for most of them. They just have to battle on with the hope that some may make it some day.
But things are changing from the days when the usual stugglers were re-elected to the Football League.

Indeed! Your point about ground grading is an important one. On the subject of Welsh football, the difference between some clubs in the Welsh league and the Welsh Premiership requirements seem pretty much like an unbridgeable chasm. Given the attendances at Welsh tier 2 (South) the cost of a single item on the requirements would break a club if they didn't follow promotion with a league win and the prize of the cash for European qualification. There seems to be a bit more shape about the Cymru Alliance though but in our travels this year I have seen club set ups in the Western League that would be the envy of many clubs in the welsh league division 1. I think only a handful of clubs in the league would qualify on ground grading and as things stand that is unlikely to change any time soon.

I think it is time the FAW considered merging those teams that make the grade in the south with top cymru alliance to make an all wales tier 2, because the current set up that could mean potentially season after season without relegation or promotion to or from the premiership is not really, in my view, good enough.

If there is one positive it is that the return of the teams from the English pyramid to the Welsh cup should bring money to the clubs who are drawn to play them. Just a pity Cardiff and Swansea showed no interest, it is understandable from their POV but it may have been a badly needed shot in the arm for the Welsh pyramid clubs.

great debate and some fantastic feedback on these issues,plenty of people talking reality but whether the powers that be take note is another thing.

TNS supporters are unhappy that Wrexham played a youth side against Airbus (who struggled to beat them!), and they think that Newport will also play the reserves and youngsters in their tie (pure speculation at this stage). Claiming that it further devalues the WPL and suggesting that FAW withdraw the invite for next season. Alternatively suggesting that they come in from the preliminary round next season (just like us then this season?!).

I doubt if the fans of the WPL clubs realise that the conference dates on a number of occasions clashed with the weekends of the FA Cup games. Or if they do they are deciding to ignore this fact.

I think the FAW have the power to fine clubs for fielding weakened sides in their Cup competitions.However, I don't think they are ever likely to. And if Cardiff and Swansea were in the Welsh Cup, their priority would still be the Football League.
Back in the 1960s, Merthyr Tydfil often fulfilled their obligations to Welsh football by avoiding relegation from the top division of the Welsh League ony through fielding their best side for a game or two and playing the Welsh League side in the Southern League.
If I remember rightly, this at least once brought us a fine from the Southern League.
However, sometimes determining what really constitutes a weakened sided could be difficult!
On the other side, sometimes a team was strengthened by the inclusion of ineligible players, that is, ringers who were signed with other clubs.
Teams often got away with it, thus avoiding points deduction and fines. But there were certainly times when the players on the field were not those named on the team sheet, especially on away trips.
There was one player, I recall, when the club themselves referred to him as one surname or another!!!

Wandering wrote:TNS supporters are unhappy that Wrexham played a youth side against Airbus (who struggled to beat them!), and they think that Newport will also play the reserves and youngsters in their tie (pure speculation at this stage). Claiming that it further devalues the WPL and suggesting that FAW withdraw the invite for next season. Alternatively suggesting that they come in from the preliminary round next season (just like us then this season?!).

I doubt if the fans of the WPL clubs realise that the conference dates on a number of occasions clashed with the weekends of the FA Cup games. Or if they do they are deciding to ignore this fact.

I think what may prove a turning point is when it comes to one of the clubs from the English pyramid winning the Welsh Cup and in particular what decision is taken with regard to European competition qualification. I am not sure there is any definitive answer on this as yet but have a feeling that a decision to the affirmative would make ensuing competitions a higher priority in club calculations, and maybe even ignite some interest among Cardiff and Swansea.

It is clear that the Welsh Cup as it stands is a low priority, with clubs putting out weakened sides, but would this still be the case if profile and finance raising European competition were to be on the table. For Wrexham, for example, who played two games on same day, surely the Welsh FA cup would represent a more viable path to international competition than the dream of being a conference side not only getting to Wembley but also winning the English FA Cup and being allowed by UEFA to represent the English FA on the international stage.



However, the clash of dates for the two national cup competitions is certainly something that should be revisited by the FAW.

Mountain Ash wrote:I think what may prove a turning point is when it comes to one of the clubs from the English pyramid winning the Welsh Cup and in particular what decision is taken with regard to European competition qualification. I am not sure there is any definitive answer on this as yet but have a feeling that a decision to the affirmative would make ensuing competitions a higher priority in club calculations, and maybe even ignite some interest among Cardiff and Swansea.

FAW will probably wait until they are forced to nominate an exile club that has actually won the Welsh Cup before approaching UEFA for a definitive answer on qualification!